important comment on orifices with time history

I have three orifices in the model, the first two are just open orifices
and the third is with time history. When reviewing the output file and
monitoring the time closure of the third orifice, I found Extran (I am
using h4.4) assigned the time history to the first gate, not the third
one as I needed. I put the F2 line following the third F1 line (since
the first two F1 lines are for the constant orifice area. that does not
change with time.)

Seems Extran assigns the first F2 line to the first F1 line regardless?
In the input file, I moved the third F1 and its F2 line to be before the
other two F1 lines and the results are now correct!

Did anyone notice the same problem? Is it only in SWMM4.4 version?
Hazem Gheith, Ph.D., PE
HGheith@EMHT.COM

This seems like something we fixed once. Are you using the Version
4.4H??

Charles I. Moore, P.E.
MOORECI@CDM.COM

Yes, it is 4.4h!

Thanks for the confirmation on the F2 problem.

Another problem I am still facing is in regard with the head-dependent
orifices.

First, according to the SWMM manual, F3 should be for timed closure
gated NKLASS 11-14. According to the manual, these NKLASS use the same
input information needed for the corresponding NKLASS 21-24? Thus both
types do the same job, head-dependent controls! So the question is what
is the difference between orifices with F3 controls and orifices with F4
controls if both need the same info (controlling node name, elevation to
open, and elevation to close the gate?)

Second, in using the head-dependent control F4: the output file
indicates reading the F4 line defining the head dependent orifice (I
tried NKLASS 21 and 23), but the results show that the orifice did not
close at the needed depth!

Any help in clearing these two points will be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Hazem

Hazem - A timed closure orifice (11-14) is typically a manually operated
gate that's either open or shut. A head-dependent gate (21-24) is
typically an automated gate that has an opening height dependent on
flow/head conditions. To understand how the model is behaving, set F3
or F4 IOPRNT to 1 and review the text output file.

Mitch Heineman, P.E. DEE
HeinemanM@CDM.COM

There is a bug in the program. I'll work with Dr. Huber to get this
worked out. For now the timed closure orifice should be first.

Wayne, the problem is in the variable LOFIF. It is assinged for each
orifice, but in INFLOW it uses it based on the index of the variable
orfices which gets the problem Hazem is noting. Can you devise a fix???
I don't have a whole lot of time at the moment.

Hazem, Did you get the variable orifices to work?

Charles I. Moore, P.E.
MOORECI@CDM.COM

See Answers to you question below (in parentheses)

Timed closure closes or opens when the corresponding head is reached. To
avoid slamming it shut, you specify the maximum rate of closure ORATE.

In head dependent, the gate position varies linearly between the heads
specified. If it is at the closed head, gate is close. If it is at the
open head, gate is open. If elevation is 1/2 way between, the gate is
1/2 open. So you see, the "position" of the gate depends on the head.
Again, an orate is specified to avoid rapid fluctuations.

Again, I don't have a whole lot of time. IF you could send the latest
file and your interface for Version 4.4H, I'll try to look at it again
(I think I deleted your previous email). If you could send me a file
that is somewhat simplified and maybe uses a ramp hydrograph on the K1,
K2, K3 lines that would be better.....

Charles I. Moore, P.E.
MOORECI@CDM.COM

Charles

The head dependent gate is still not working (F4 line). I defined a
closing elevation that has been reached, but did not result in closing
the gate?

Not sure if it is something unique in this file, or it is a SWMM 4.4h
problem?

Thanks for the help.
Hazem
HGheith@EMHT.COM

Mitch,

SWMM output text gives the same description when using F3 or F4 lines.
Seems they are doing the exact same job? As I mentioned, even SWMM
manual is describing the two lines F3 and F4 exactly the same. You will
find F3 lines describing NKLASS 11 and F4 lines describing NKLASS 21 are
exactly typical. They need the same inputs and produce the same text
description as seen in the attachments? Again, I am using SWMM 4.4h at
this moment if it makes a difference.

Thanks
Hazem

Hazem,

The F4 line is called a head dependent gate but the user must enter
opening and closing depths (it does state this in the extran.doc file).
Enter the "Depth at control junction at which the gate is fully open, ft
[m]."

If you substitute the following line for your original F4 line with
elevations the orifice will open and close at the proper depths (from
node 20305).

F4 20305 0.25 3.50 0.00 0.0 0 1

If you use depths then your model will work in any version of swmm44h or
later. BTW, the answers you get with the F3 and F4 lines are the same.

Regards,
Bob Dickinson
DickinsonRE@CDM.COM

The problem with the F2 lines was fixed by CDM last April. You need two
new variables with we call f2_line and f2_limit in subroutines
indat2.for and inflow.for. I am enclosing the code for anyone who wants
to be change the code themselves in their copy of swmm44h.

Code for indat2.for:
cred need a place holder for the F2 line orifices
cred otherwise they have to be at the top of the
cred order of orifices - 4/15/2002
f2_line(nvor) = i
f2_limit(nvor) = ntime
Code for inflow.for:
DO 9000 M = 1,NVOR
mm = f2_line(m) ---> this is a new
line
N = LORIF(mm)
JJ = NORPLC(m)
IF(JJ.EQ.0) JJ = 1
DO 8990 J = JJ,f2_limit(m) ---> this is a
changed
line

Code for the include file orf.inc:
cred add a place holder for F2 type orifice - 4/15/2002
integer f2_line,f2_limit
common/f2_orf/f2_line(neo),f2_limit(neo)

Wayne Huber does have this code but with the work being done on the SWMM
5 redevlopment I am not sure when a new version of the Fortran code will
come out.

Hazem, as I said in the other email - F3 and F4 are functionally the
same in SWMM.

Robert Dickinson

The main difference is that Time Closure gates are either open or
closed. Head dependent gates can be part way open when the depth at the
control junction is between the closed depth and the open depth.

Charles I. Moore, P.E.
MOORECI@CDM.COM

Thanks Bob for the explanations. So for the time being, all orifices
with F2 lines should be listed first before the other orifices. This
worked fine with me.

And also as you mentioned, F4 line needs water depth not water
elevation. I fixed that and it works fine.

Thanks all for the help.
Hazem